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RAUK - Archived Forum - Berus, or Ursinii?

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Berus, or Ursinii?:

Author	Message
Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 15 May 2003 And if it is berus ? How did this guy obtain it ? I always thought CB berus were not available for the pet trade. Alanhttp://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=5338,5338 O-> O+>

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 15 May 2003 Look more like Ursinii to me . Could be wrong but the nostril looks lower down and the stripe bellow the eye is edged with black. Alan O-> O+>

Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps	Posted: 15 May 2003 Sorry Alan, what are you looking at? Specific Source? If I see a pic tell you OK? Tony

GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF	Posted: 15 May 2003 Tony, It might be a bit slow to display on Alan's link, this is the picture he was referring to... Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 15 May 2003 Ha! I was just about to do that, thanks Gemma Tony, It's a message on Kingsnake .com in the Vipera forum . This guy is posting pics of vipers in his collection . Cheers, Alan O-> O+>

Martin Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 87 View other posts by Martin	Posted: 15 May 2003 I'm not marvellously adder experienced but the nose doesn't look right to me. (I nearly didn't say anything here as I'm not into adders - I much prefer to not to have to worry too much about being bitten! - I reckon it's a viper though )

Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps	Posted: 15 May 2003 The photo is definitely berus. ursinii has a much more rounded snout, but the big giveaway is that ursinii's scales are noticeably more strongly keeled. Did you say this was captive bred Alan? Tony

Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb	Posted: 16 May 2003 I don't know about recent times, but wild-caught Balkan V. berus (described as V. b. bosniensis) were available through the pet trade about 10 years ago.

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 16 May 2003 Hi Tony , Thanks. I've never seen ursinii, exept in photos . I don't know if this snake is CB or not Tony. I was just curious , as this guy is posting pics of his 'collection' , various vipera . From my experience , people who have a varied collection usually buy rather than go out and capture , so i was just curious as to whether he'd found someone breeding them. He could be from somewhere in Europe , but the majority of KS Forum members are from the US , and all the Americans i've spoken to say Berus isn't available stateside. I don't know, I could be wrong but I was under the impression that berus wasn't available to be bought. If you click on the link again Tony , then click on 'Back to Viperidea forum ' you'll see all the posts and pics of his other captives. http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=5338,5338 Thanks for the ID Tony. Cheers, Alan O-> O+>

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 16 May 2003 Thanks Caleb. I missed your post, you must have been writting at the same time as me. Cheers, Alan O-> O+>

Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster	Posted: 16 May 2003 I also agree with berus, although I can see why it looks a bit odd. Another character that distinguishes berus from ursinii is the presence of two (rather than one) apical scales - they are the scales on top of the head which contact the top margin of the rostral. This specimen clearly has two. The poster posted from Finland, so the animal may just be a home-caught specimen. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang W�ster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 16 May 2003 Hi Wolfgang, Thanks for the extra tips on ID . I thought he might have been European. You know what I mean , all the previous berus pics I've seen on KS have been field shots . It's very unusual to see someone actually keeping them . Did you see his pic of Orlovi? What a stunning viper! Cheers, Alan O-> O+>

Martin Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 87 View other posts by Martin	Posted: 16 May 2003 I flashed that photo to a mate of mine last night and this morning he replied to me with, Viper berus bosnensis, probably from the former Yugoslavia. Martin.

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 16 May 2003 Hi Martin, thanks. Most interesting, i might email the guy and ask him. Alan O-> O+>

Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster	Posted: 17 May 2003 If you go to the forum at kingsnake.com (URL: http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=87 ), someone called Janne has given the locality of the animal - it was from Finland. He/she (sorry, not sure) also posted a couple of other photos of Estonian adders - including a couple with a very weird striped pattern, as seen in some V. seoanei. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang W�ster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 17 May 2003 Hi Wolfgang , I've just been looking at those also, they're really strange eh . I'd still like to know if these snakes are CB or WC's though , and if wild caught ,where did they find the striped ones? Here's the link for anyone that'd like a look- http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=87 As Wolfgang said the messages and pics are posted by someone called Janne. Cheers , Alan O-> O+>

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 17 May 2003 Also , I forgot, So are these Estonian adders still berus? Al O-> O+>

Tony Phelps Forum Specialist Joined: 09 Mar 2003 No. of posts: 575 View other posts by Tony Phelps	Posted: 17 May 2003 That striped berus is certainly reminiscent of V.seoanei, (going N.Spain next year to have a lool and sbsp V.s.cantabrica). I have a female berus on one of my Purbeck sites, who is now 15yrs, and has a distinctive pattern, the zigzag is replaced by a stripe for the last half of the body. She is quite a big snake - 68cm. Several female berus lying out in heavy rain today - no figuring snakes sometimes. Tony Phelps

Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster	Posted: 17 May 2003 Alan, Estonian adders are Vipera berus berus, just like those from the rest of northern Europe and Asia. There is a paper by a Swiss/Swedish group coming out soon that shpws that they are in fact remarkably homogeneous genetically across most of their vast range. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang W�ster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/

Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde	Posted: 17 May 2003 Hi Wolfgang , Thanks for that info. That's really quite amazing , you'd have thought that there would be some differences . Cheers, Alan O-> O+>

- Berus, or Ursinii?

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